Lucy Jeffrey from Bare Kind

Sam (00:04): Lucy, welcome to Beyond the Inbox. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.

Lucy (00:08): Ah, no problem. Hi.

Sam (00:11): Can you tell us about the inspiration behind Bare Kind and how it came to be?

Lucy (00:17): Yeah, a hundred percent. So I founded the Brand Bare Kind about five years ago now. I was working for a bank at the time and yeah, doing a job that was okay, but it wasn't really lighting any fires underneath me. I wanted to do something that would have more of an impact on the world. Um, in working for a bank, you tend to be like quite a small cog in a massive machine. So I really wanted to like do something else, like really leave a legacy, um, to the world. So that's where Bare Kind came about. Um, it actually, the product that we sell today is actually completely different from what we started selling. So we actually started by selling reusable straws. So at the time there was a, like a kind of mass trend going on about reducing single use plastics and things like using reusable straws, stainless steel straws.

(01:00): So I kind of jumped on that trend and started going down that route and experimenting with like different products like reusable tote bags, t-shirts. And it wasn't until maybe a year and a bit later that I landed on my hero product, which I eventually went on and quit my job to, um, to sell more of. And that is our bamboo socks. Um, and 10% of the profits are donated to the animal on the sock. So we've got this product, um, which is a really cool product. But on the behind the scenes, um, we've got this amazing kind of ethical, I guess, reasoning behind the product where we're, we are supporting animal conservation and we've got loads of charity partners around the world. Um, yeah, they're all over the place. We've got quite a few based in the uk which which is where I am, but lots of charity partners around the world as well. And yeah, and it's just kind of grown since then. In 2020 I quit my job. Um, so I've been doing it full-time for about two years. I've got a small team behind me and yeah, we are a soc business now. That's, that's a hundred percent of what we do at the moment.

Sam (02:01): What was it like making that leap from safe, full-time employment to the unpredictability of an entrepreneurship?

Lucy (02:10): It was, yeah, it was really exciting. I, I was lucky that I like spoke to my partner about it. So I was living with my, my boyfriend and, and I still am and he was very, very supportive. So I kind of had that like support behind me to say he, he had his full-time job, he was at the same bank as I was. He was like, I've got this, you need to take this moment to experiment. Like if you don't do it now, when will you? Um, and he, that was two years ago and he's actually recently also quit to join me. So I guess that's, wow. Yeah, I know. So now both of us, this is actually feels a little bit more scary cuz now we're both, you know, like double income is now on fully on the business. Uh, so it needs to work <laugh>.

(02:49): Um, yeah, so I was very lucky to have his support. Um, but yeah, no, very exciting. I haven't looked back, to be honest, like it was the best decision I've ever made. Even if business crashes and burns in like the next week or so, uh, which hopefully it won't. Um, I think it was the right decision for me. You can always go back to the nine to five, like I've been there, done that, I have some experience, I could always go back to it if I have to, but I'm just glad I've, you know, grabbed life and just gone through it.

Sam (03:15): Let's talk more about the business. So you mentioned Bare Kind is selling socks and obviously apparel and accessories is a very competitive market. What makes Bare Kind different from other apparel and accessory brands?

Lucy (03:30): Yeah, so it is our us p with this like charity donation and we, we find that really resonates with people. We use it a hell of a lot in our marketing. It's, we literally pin everything on it. Like it's the kind of sole reason we exist. Um, and so we really, really like double down on that like niche that we've got. So we are very, very focused on the animals and the charities that we support and we notice that that's why our customers buy from us. So we, we see it in our reviews as well. So our customers are saying, you know, love the, the charity donation. Um, it, it's interesting that we actually see that the reason they come back is cuz it's then they realize that it's actually a very good product cuz it does have the potential to be a bit of a gimmick.

(04:11): Like great you donate to charity but because the product itself is actually like very good quality as well, which was always really important to me. That's where we are then getting customers who believe in the cause but also like, and use the product. Um, so yeah, that's what makes us different and it's, uh, it's not the reason I did it, but it's become like a really good marketing tool. Um, you know, the, the purpose of the brand is to is to channel more money into animal conservation, but because of that it's almost like a, it's like a win-win because it does really well. We're on our marketing side as well because we have that U S P.

Sam (04:45): Is that difficult for you to sometimes navigate this balance between, you have to focus on the conservation, but this is also a business. How do you find that balance, especially when it comes to your marketing?

Lucy (04:58): So overall people are really understanding of it and they're very, very supportive cuz we donate 10% of profits. So, and people, most of the time we, we've seen it in our email marketing in our kind of organic, like anytime customers engage with us organically, um, they're just like, they really love what we do and they're like, what a great idea. I love this. Happy to support. Interestingly it's on our Facebook ads and that's the only place we see it where someone will come in and say, oh why only 10%? I'm sorry I'm not spending that much on socks. I might as well donate directly to the charity. The the funniest ones are where they come in and say, well how much are your top CEOs paid if you're only doing 10, 10%? And I'm like, really not much. I'm not being paid much. I think they assume we're some like massive company that's using it as like just a little like benefit to help sell.

(05:46): But it's actually the reason we exist. So I think when people know us and understand and see the brand, they get it. But if it's just someone that kind of is seeing us as a flyby on Facebook, that's where we tend to have not many, it's the minority that get involved but as soon as we reply and say actually we're a small company, you know, temp, we're still a business so we've got, you know, salaries to pay, um, you know, we have to function and grow as a business as well as donating. So that's why we have that. So there's a minority that kind of don't fully understand it. Um, but that also shows to me that I'm glad we are in this niche cuz obviously it's not this concept of donating to to charity as well as being a business isn't fully formed yet that people aren't really understanding it. Uh, which tells me it's a good thing that we're in this niche cuz we're kind of like early adopters for it.

Sam (06:31): Absolutely. And I wanna go back to something you mentioned and I had a question around this. So I don't think I've seen a brand with so many five star reviews as Bare Kind. And I wanted to ask you why you think you're driving so many reviews and what are you doing to help drive more reviews in the long term?

Lucy (06:53): Yeah, so there's a few key things. I think having, making sure you have a review automation in place is obviously a key thing. So whatever email software you use or whatever review software you have for your website, just make sure you have those automations in place. So our customers are just automatically asked, they're also automatically chased for a review. So from a logistical point of view that helps. Um, in terms of what we're actually doing, I think it is a testament to the product. So we've got, people want to support us because we're supporting charity and animals, so we're supporting something they care about. So I think they're more willing to leave us a review. Um, the second thing is that the quality of the product and kind of everything we've built around it is to make sure our customers are like five star happy with us.

(07:33): And then the third thing I'd say, and this is the other thing that we see mostly in our customer reviews coming through on Trustpilot as well as our like on um, on our website is our customer service. Um, so our customer service is like really, really key to what we do. Um, it's, it used to be just me now it's mainly my sister who's helping out. Um, so we kind of like tag team that at Christmas it does get very, very busy, but we're, you know, we are responding to customers same day. You know, we are just, we are on it all the time and it's not necessarily scalable or sustainable, um, cuz it's gonna become a, you know, a bottleneck point. But at the moment we're just managing to be like five outta five on customer service and I think customers expect that these days.

Sam (08:17): Do you think that's gonna be difficult as you scale because the customer service is so close to home with you and your sister doing it? How are you gonna navigate that challenge do you think? Yeah,

Lucy (08:25): I don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm scared to let it go. Well it, to be fair, it was a jump for me, like letting it go to my sister. It was always one of the last things that really I was still doing it and shouldn't be doing it as founder. Um, but I trust my sister and she's very good at it. But there will come a crux point where, you know, she, this isn't her full-time job. Like she actually has a job as well, so she does it kind of side of desk, um, like in her spare time. So really there's gonna become a point where either she moves on or runs out of time and I can't manage and I'm gonna have to either outsource it or hire someone. There's a, you know, there's a few different models but I think whatever I do, I'm just gonna have to keep it as close as possible to kind of, you know, our brand messaging, our tone of voice, like just really manage it tightly until I have another person in board. Whether they're, you know, whether they're actually on the team or they're outsourced, they need to, I need to be like really close to them as a person. I think I can't just give it to you know, just some random person that I don't fully understand their, like their values. I think it's one of those that it might be more expensive doing it that way, but I think in the long term it's much better for our brand.

Sam (09:32): I think it's something a lot of founders struggle with. I was speaking to a founder recently and he was talking about how he actually hired one of his customers to do the customer service and he said he had to thank them to do it really because they were such a strong advocate for the brand. He knew that this was the person that had to head the customer service and he managed to get here. So it's a pretty interesting story. Yeah,

Lucy (09:55): Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. I've got a few customers actually that I don't know if that would be good or not, but inter yeah, that's really interesting. <laugh>,

Sam (10:02): I wanna dive into the current marketing strategy. I have so many questions, but I wanna start off very broad by asking how are you reaching your target audience today?

Lucy (10:12): So I'd say all the like usual channels. So we've got like our Facebook ads, which historically have done very well for us and have got harder and more expense, uh, more expensive. I know a lot of brands are seeing that and Google ads as well, interestingly. Um, and our email marketing as well, we've, we've done a lot of work to boost our kind of subscriber base and actually something slightly different that a lot of brands might not have done is we did radio ads at the end of last year. Um, so massive awareness campaigns. This was, this went out to millions of people across the UK at Christmas as well, which is our peak time as a so company. And yeah, we, we saw great revenue off the back of that. Um, we really did. Uh, but it also came in a very, very expensive time.

(10:53): So kind of when we went back to look at our profit in 2022, we had in double revenue on the previous year, but our profit hadn't gone up much and that's cuz we had postal strikes, so shipping went up like three times we that registered. So 20% just goes straight away. Um, and yeah, just the, the advertising has got more expensive. Like yes radio ads were expensive but everywhere else we're seeing the increase as well. Uh, really seeing the pinch. So we've kind of dabbled in a lot of different ones. The only one I'd say we don't do at all, uh, or very well is we don't do any kind of TikTok or anything at the moment. Um, more of a, we've tried it now and then we've tried organic, but I, it's just a time thing for me sometimes you just have to really like focus on what you've got time to do. We are, you know, we're a small team so I dunno whether maybe we'll do it one day and realize, oh I wish we'd done it sooner, but we just have to prioritize what <laugh> what we've got on our plate.

Sam (11:46): That's so interesting that you mentioned radio. How do you measure the success of something like that? Are you sending listeners to a URL or what does that look like?

Lucy (11:55): No, it's, it's very difficult cause you have limited time. So the max ad you can have is like 30 seconds. So you can't really, you're not on the ad saying www dot this, like it is literally like search Bare Kind bamboo socks. Um, so we again, a lot of them come through Google and we have to mop that up. And the thing is with Bear Cotton as well is our bare is spelled b a r e and everyone else assumes it's B E A R. So we've kind of had to like mop up that traffic as well. Um, it's very, very, it's historically very difficult to attribute radio however we do know that we had a massive uptake, like we could literally see it from like the radio ads going live and then the uptake from there. But we do have a ch um, like a post checkout survey that asks customers where they found us over 50% were saying they found us on the radio. So we kind of just have to trust that that data is, is telling us what's really happening cuz it's really hard even on the Facebook or Google, it's hard to attribute that these days as well. So we just have to kind of use the data we've got

Sam (12:52): Very true and I'm sitting here wondering, I wonder if people will come back again next year because they had such a good experience the first time around and they come back again a year later and still technically came from radio but they're also a former customer as well. So I guess that's another layer to the attribution that you might,

Lucy (13:11): So yeah, and we do rely on that and because we are such a good gifting product, we do tend to get customers, you know, as long as they get into our funnel at some point and we've got obviously got a Lala email marketing we can try and get them back in the next year and they also tend to order more from us so they'll then go in and say, right, I'm gonna get socks for everyone. So they'll do socks for the whole family. So our average order size at Christmas is also like so much higher than normal so that goes really well for us. So yeah, hopefully, we'll I don't, we haven't discussed yet if we're gonna do radio ads again this year. Um, but yeah hopefully we will have a lot of returning customers as well.

Sam (13:46): I wanna talk a little bit about the customer life cycle. So when someone runs on the website for the first time, what kind of journey do they go through? Are they buying straight away? Are they entering their email and going through a welcome flow? What does that look like?

Lucy (13:59): We do have a welcome flow so we do a 10% off your first order. Um, so we do notice quite a lot of people go through that. Um, I think because we're quite a low cost product so our a pair, a pair of socks is cost you less than 10 pounds. So I'd say it's probably easier to convert someone straight away to buy a pair than it is like other products that might be a lot higher value. Um, so we do people see people convert fairly quickly, like it might be Facebook a convert, um, even though the Facebook ad does like cost us quite a bit. Um, but then we also get people that kind of go through the flows and we explain a bit more about like the charity impact we have. We've just released our charity impact report. So I'd say most, and again because we've got, as you said, we've got a lot of five star reviews.

(14:42): So again that social proof is there and we tend to convert people a lot quicker. Um, a really interesting piece of insight is we've got um, a piece of software that kind of has a look at where customers are clicking and, and it kind of shows us where they're looking on the screen and a lot of our customers love shopping from just our all collections page. So it's literally just one page that shows all of the socks and they will click through every single one because I think with our type of product is it's technically one product that's all we've got, but just loads of different designs do they want, obviously our customers are wanting to make sure that they've seen everything that's possibly available to them. Um, so that's quite an interesting one. I dunno if there's anyone, any other kind of apparel businesses would have that kind of thing. But yeah, I think yeah, overall we're quite lucky that customers can convert fairly quickly, especially at Christmas. Like it change, Q4 changes everything, it's like a different company and people will just convert the, the average order goes up, the conversion rate goes up, it's nuts. So we really are a Q4 business.

Sam (15:42): So what happens after someone has made a purchase? I assume they're still in the funnel. Are they getting a post-purchase flow or then maybe a repeat purchase flow later? What happens after they've become a customer? Yeah,

Lucy (15:54): Yeah. So once they are a customer we actually have quite a few different um, like repeat purchase flows. Um, so we've got someone in the team who set all this up that we've got I think from two orders up to like eight and above. We've obviously got like a limit somewhere. We haven't had enough PE people order yet, um, that they'll get an email after each order to say like four orders. You are amazing. Like some like otters clapping or something like we've really focused on the animal. Um, and yeah, so we really are, we do actually have customers that are all doing quite a lot of times for us and we do have those emails that go out to them. Um, but yeah, we also have all the kind of standard stuff. So first time, you know, abandoned checkout, like all those kind of standard flows. Yeah. And then we have a monthly newsletter as well.

Sam (16:40): You mentioned Christmas, are there any other seasonal holidays that drive a lot of sales like Father's Day or Mother's Day or anything like that?

Lucy (16:48): Yeah, so we're about to go, well we just have Mother's Day, haven't we? So actually, yeah, not Mother's Day isn't really a big campaign for us. We'll mention it but it doesn't seem to take off. But Father's Day is quite a big one. I think people just like assume associate like getting socks for their dad. Like it's just such a dad gift. So we really go hard on the Facebook ads there. We make sure like all the imagery is the kind of typical socks that we know sell well in the like men's sizes. Um, so yeah, it Father's Day is pretty big but nothing compared to Christmas.

Sam (17:19): You mentioned you have a newsletter and you're sending out seasonal campaigns. How are you planning all your email campaigns over the quarter and the entire year?

Lucy (17:29): Yeah, so we, we do, we do have a content calendar. So we have people, we have um, someone that looks after our email marketing on our website. We have someone that looks after our like social media, charity, paid dad content. Um, she's a designer so she kind of does all that for us. And then separately from that we have someone that looks after the wholesale side of the business cuz we also have email marketing b2b. So we've got kind of bt, BT and b2b. Um, so they all own those strands so they'll kind of come in to say these are the ideas I've got planned out over the next few months. This is what I want on Father's Day. We'll come together as a team and have a look at it and say Okay, well you've put this email in for B2C actually let's replicate that and put it on b2b. Do we have an Instagram post? Good Just making sure everything's like aligned across the board. Um, it's good for collaborating, it's good for kind of making sure that we are, you know, if we've got one piece of work done that we are really sweating it and making sure that assets are used everywhere so we're not kind of like doubling up on work though. Yeah, we do have a content calendar, nothing fancy, it's just an Excel spreadsheet but it works for us at the moment.

Sam (18:32): You mentioned something when we last spoke that I really wanted to dig into cuz I find it fascinating. You mentioned people are nostalgic about their home country animals and how that influences their buying decisions and I wanted to ask you about that and how you can use that to your advantage when you're building out these flows.

Lucy (18:48): Yeah, yeah. This is like an assumption I've made based on like what I see people saying and also our sales data, but we're really seeing people buying. We are a very UK focused business at the moment. Like a lot of our b you know, our ads are all focused on the UK and docs that do really well are things like hedgehogs badges, bumblebees, um, there are others like a tangs and tigers and things that sell well as well. But we are really noticing that these UK animals, um, are selling really well and hedgehogs have been, I launched them in May 21 and they're still one of our best sellers. So they're a, yeah, they're a strong favorite. And yeah, so we've made this assumption that actually people are just really supported, just love UK animals like, and you can see it in trends as well.

(19:30): You can like bees are everywhere as like an animal you can, you can see them just like on like cushions and throws everywhere. So we've kind of followed those trends and in terms of like working with that in our flows is we really focus down on that animal kind of group. So if someone has bought a pair of B socks, we will target them with like hedgehog socks or showing them the, the UK woodland flow and we'll also target them at certain times of the year. So there's like a national B day, there's a national hedgehog day. So we use those kind of specific animal days as a reason to reach out to them if they've already bought a pair of hedgehogs for example, we will kind of go to them before hedgehog day to say it's hedgehog day on Friday, make sure you wear your hedgehog socks. Um, and then you know, we might target with them with some ads on, you know, there's badges and foxes as well and you know, show them that. And it also influences our product decisions cuz I'm looking at bringing out, you know, more UK wildlife based on, you know, this data.

Sam (20:30): I wanted to ask about that as well, if we can dig into that a little bit more. How are you, how are you thinking about product line extension and do you test okay, which animal is more likely to sell? How can you make those kind of decisions based on the data that you have?

Lucy (20:49): Is that, I actually think it's getting harder for us cuz it used to be that when we first started, so I started Pat turtle socks, people liked them so I bought out four more animals and then since then I've just kind of been adding to the range purely based on what I think could be a, the next good seller. Um, and it, it got to a point where what we're doing is just adding socks based on, okay, well we don't have orange socks, so let's make orange socks, um, and then let's bring in animals that we don't have. So we didn't have tigers or gorillas, but they're kind of key, almost like famous endangered animals. So we need to kind of build out the range. But now we've got to the point where we have a decent range, we've got about about 40 different animals I think.

(21:27): Um, but now we're trying to make decisions based on the data and based on, you know, seasonality. So I'm trying to work, work through um, you know, which colors would be best for which season and things like this. It's actually got complex and as I said before, I came from banking. I don't have a background in merchandising or anything in fashion, so this is actually becoming quite a challenge for me at the moment. Um, where I'm trying to work through like the product decisions. The good news is that we've not had a flop really with any of the socks, so we tend to be able to just bring out any socks and just see how it do, how they go and test from there. We've got our minimum order quantity is a thousand pairs, so we'll like bring that out and try and sell them and then we're getting to the stage now where we're reviewing if we've got any unproductive products and we'll start pushing them to the backlog.

(22:12): And we've never had to do that before. We just restock everything. But now we've got such a big range, we really do have to kind of be more strategic with like what we're bringing out and what we're putting on the back burner. So it's, yeah, I guess a roundabout way of saying it's actually quite a challenge for me now. Like I don't, I don't have the answers and this is cuz you know, other brands will have, you know, full merchandising department to do this job. Like it's an actual full-time job for someone. So it's, it's something I'm trying to work through at the moment.

Sam (22:40): Where do you see the company going in the next couple of years? I spoke to a founder recently and she said I'm more than happy to make X amount per year because I want to keep it small, I want to keep it within the family. Do you wrestle with this conflict between wanting to grow the company really big and keeping it small? Where, where is your stance on that?

Lucy (23:02): Oh, I, I want to go global <laugh>. I like, I have big ambitions for it. Like I think that the whole point of the company is to make as much money to go into charity con like and support animal conservation as possible. Um, you know, climate change isn't slowing down, um, at all. So I really wanna be able to kind of support these charities in, in the way that I can and that's by running the selling as many socks as possible. So I, yeah, I want to sell in more countries, in more retailers, go like, just really like take it as big as we can. There's so many more socks that wanna bring out more, more charities I wanna support, uh, potentially different products. I guess we might diversify in the future. I think right now we're a stock company and we are seeing a lot of growth in that area and there's a lot of opportunities just in socks.

(23:46): So we're just sticking with that at the moment. But I, I think the model we've got could work on other products though. Yeah, I I, I like the feel of like an independent company. Like I don't want, I don't want a huge team. Um, but I do see us getting to the point where maybe we bring in like maybe we bring in like a more experienced c e O for example and I'm still the founder and I can kind of focus on on like the stuff that I'm really like good at. Um, and we still try and keep the team quite, um, cozy as it were. But I, yeah, I really do wanna scale it and I really believe in the project and I think it could, um, I think it has the potential to do this. It's just kind of battling like everything that's going on with, you know, shipping costs rising and marketing costs rising. We've just got to kind of hold on at the moment.

Sam (24:32): What do you think is the one marketing channel you're really gonna double down on in 2023?

Lucy (24:39): We're actually doubling down on the wholesale, um, as, as a whole channel. Um, but obviously that does in, it's interesting cuz we don't have a huge spend in wholesale marketing, but our main marketing channel wholesale is email. Um, so we've just kind of, yeah, moved into that and we are really doubling down and the reason we've done this is cuz we did our profit analysis for last year. DTC is so expensive. Um, you know, the Facebook adss, the vat, the shipping, whereas on wholesale they pay the vat. Um, they tend to pay the shipping but also even if you are paying the shipping, it's split across like hundreds of units rather than just like two or three pairs of socks. Um, and our marketing costs are super low plus it's basically free marketing cuz every shop that you are stock in that is being seen by other customers that you might not have reached before. Though don't get me wrong, we're still like a DTC brand and we're very Christmas focused, but Q one to q3, we are really just trying to go in heavy into wholesale because it's also a really consistent, um, like cash flow for us. Um, revenue generator because you know, when DTC is is very hard to work then and it's getting expensive, then at least we have these retailers that keep coming back to us and kind of keeping our company alive in the, in the choir to DTC periods.

Sam (25:53): One channel that I've seen or heard rather a lot of founders talking about is community and that extends beyond social. We've talked about email, we've talked about paid. I'm really curious what social means to you to Bare Kind and how you plan on potentially leveraging that in the future as well.

Lucy (26:10): Well it's interesting cuz we're, um, I feel like we're going down like a slightly different route with this, but my partner and I, we've just started our own podcast and, and as we're adding it to the Bare kind YouTube channel, um, so again, it's doubling down in this wholesale niche, but my, my YouTube channel is like a community of brands like mine who are following along, um, as we grow our wholesale channels. So I'm doing a lot of sharing like how we're doing wholesale, we're, we are on this, um, marketplace called Fair, which is a massive wholesale marketplace basically it's like an Amazon but for wholesale brands. Um, and we've really found this niche where we're just talk releasing YouTube's videos, talking about how we've got our success on this channel. Um, and so yeah, so we've, we've kind of done this channel and we've just launched this podcast and the podcast is all about doing things like this, just talking about what it's actually like running a business, how it's going, what our strategies are, like talking about the numbers, just being really transparent about, you know, how we are growing this business because we're in the process now, hopefully over the next, I reckon two years we're trying to grow from six figures to seven.

(27:16): Like that is what we're trying to do and it's a massive leap and it's gonna be really hard, but I think it would be good for people to see how we actually do it because you know, I learned from other people and I think it's actually hard to find people that are willing to talk so openly about this stuff. So yeah, that's what I'm, and I'm hoping to build a community there. I guess that would be nice <laugh>,

Sam (27:35): That's uh, well firstly amaz that well done. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's amazing. And it, it, it makes me so happy to hear that because I spoke to a founder recently and he was talking about how he's, he started a, a personal brand and he's riding on social every day and he's sharing all these learnings that he's had from growing seven and eight figure businesses. And I do believe that it always comes back to the brands because people buy into people not brands. Yeah. And I'm sure you're gonna build this community where people are on this journey with you and of course Bear Kind is gonna be a part of that as well. So major props for, for you and your partner for starting that. And uh, I'll thank you. I'll be sure, I'll be sure to check it out, uh, after this recording. So Lucy, I wanna start wrapping up here. I had a ton of questions I wasn't able to get through all of them. Where can our listeners learn more about Bare Kind and stay up to date with the bronze latest developments?

Lucy (28:26): Yeah, a hundred percent. So I mean, follow me on LinkedIn for sure. So Lucy, Jeffrey on LinkedIn is where I, again, I share a lot of like these insights and this is where this community is coming from, these, these founders willing to share. Um, the website's barekind.com and we're also Bare Kind on Instagram and there's a lot of lovely just animal content on there if that's something you're interested in. Um, but yes, bear kind on YouTube as well. Um, but yeah, the, um, the podcast is called Candid Founders, so if you go to candidfounders.com or I think really just follow me on LinkedIn, um, that's where I share everything that's going on. Uh, and yeah. And yeah, come check it out. Give us a listen. I'd love to hear from you guys. It's, yeah, it is very new. We literally launched podcast one yesterday so we are completely fresh to it. <laugh>

Sam (29:08): Well congratulations. We'll put the links in the show notes and I wanna thank you again, Lucy, for taking the time to join us and all the best in the future with Bare Kind.

Lucy (29:17): Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.